Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 17:42:27 GMT
Ok yeah, hair splitting aside, the following is objectively true: "My belief is that oxygen is an element or type of molecule, and comes in all four states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, plasma. "
That means it will remain true whether we choose to accept it or not, and it's not influenced by our subjective beliefs, thoughts, ideas or opinions.
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Post by sunflower on Nov 11, 2023 17:43:38 GMT
Ok yeah, hair splitting aside, the following is objectively true: "My belief is that oxygen is an element or type of molecule, and comes in all four states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, plasma. " That means it will remain true whether we choose to accept it or not, and it's not influenced by our subjective beliefs, thoughts, ideas or opinions. Is that so? Then prove that it's true, without relying on any subjective evidence. |
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Post by sunflower on Nov 11, 2023 17:52:50 GMT
That all knowledge is subjective follows logically from the subjective nature of our experience. Then it logically follows that your belief that an objective reality exists is also subjective. If that belief helps you, that's what counts. I simply judge my beliefs based on whether they're helpful without the extra step of judging "objectivity", since I've found it to be an unnecessary label.
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Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 17:53:02 GMT
We can do it by employing objectively verifiable methods and criteria. By objective, I mean "minimizing personal bias in the evaluation of evidence".
These criteria may include empirical evidence, consistency, be reproducible, and by testing for falsifiability. I would include peer review, but you are going to say those are subjective perceptions...
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Post by sunflower on Nov 11, 2023 18:00:19 GMT
We can do it by employing objectively verifiable methods and criteria. By objective, I mean "minimizing personal bias in the evaluation of evidence". These criteria may include empirical evidence, consistency, be reproducible, and by testing for falsifiability. I would include peer review, but you are going to say those are subjective perceptions... So it's about using the empirical method to achieve consistent results. What if you skipped the label of "objectivity", and applied the same criteria to your subjective experiences to figure out which actions influence your experience in the ways you want? |
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Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 18:06:00 GMT
We can do it by employing objectively verifiable methods and criteria. By objective, I mean "minimizing personal bias in the evaluation of evidence". These criteria may include empirical evidence, consistency, be reproducible, and by testing for falsifiability. I would include peer review, but you are going to say those are subjective perceptions... So it's about using the empirical method to achieve consistent results. What if you skipped the label of "objectivity", and applied the same criteria to your subjective experiences to figure out which actions influence your experience in the ways you want? Wouldn't that be irrational? |
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Post by sunflower on Nov 11, 2023 18:10:31 GMT
So it's about using the empirical method to achieve consistent results. What if you skipped the label of "objectivity", and applied the same criteria to your subjective experiences to figure out which actions influence your experience in the ways you want? Wouldn't that be irrational? What makes you think so? As far as I can see, the only thing that's irrational is to proclaim your assumptions and beliefs (based on what others have told you, no less) to be absolute truths, rather than a βworking theoryβ. |
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Post by sunflower on Nov 11, 2023 18:18:17 GMT
Are you having fun with this debate? I know I am. @ Druan |
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Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 18:19:26 GMT
Ok, now I understand what you are getting at. Let's say that everything is subjective, the only way to know what is objectively true without our own biases getting in the way would be to question and scrutinize everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, that means it's objectively true, regardless of our subjective perceptions.
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Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 18:21:37 GMT
Are you having fun with this debate? I know I am. @ Druan I see what you did there |
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Post by sunflower on Nov 11, 2023 18:29:06 GMT
Ok, now I understand what you are getting at. Let's say that everything is subjective, the only way to know what is objectively true without our own biases getting in the way would be to question and scrutinize everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, that means it's objectively true, regardless of our subjective perceptions. I also understand what you're getting at; but scrutinizing everything is a common form of self-sabotage. If you skinned an apple in an attempt to figure out why it's red, it would no longer be red, and would spoil much faster unless you ate it quickly. Time is essential, and experiments can't be undone. Don't you get better results if you go with the flow and do what you believe has the best chance of success, regardless of whether everyone agrees? That's my experience. |
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Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 18:35:49 GMT
Ok, now I understand what you are getting at. Let's say that everything is subjective, the only way to know what is objectively true without our own biases getting in the way would be to question and scrutinize everything. If it holds up to scrutiny, that means it's objectively true, regardless of our subjective perceptions. I also understand what you're getting at; but scrutinizing everything is a common form of self-sabotage. If you skinned an apple in an attempt to figure out why it's red, it would no longer be red, and would spoil much faster unless you ate it quickly. Time is essential, and experiments can't be undone. Don't you get better results if you go with the flow and do what you believe has the best chance of success, regardless of whether everyone agrees? That's my experience. That is a recipe for getting taken advantage of. If you just go with the flow you can easily fall subject to your own cognitive biases, or be manipulated by others who know that you have these biases. Scrutiny is a tool that can be equated to the walking stick or guide dog of a blind man. Being able to navigate life while aligning oneself with truth can be very liberating and empowering. |
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Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 18:37:11 GMT
Only fools just accept things in blind faith without questioning them.
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Druan
Senior Member
Posts: 360
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Post by Druan on Nov 11, 2023 18:39:49 GMT
Ok yeah, hair splitting aside, the following is objectively true: "My belief is that oxygen is an element or type of molecule, and comes in all four states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, plasma. " That means it will remain true whether we choose to accept it or not, and it's not influenced by our subjective beliefs, thoughts, ideas or opinions. Is that so? Then prove that it's true, without relying on any subjective evidence. I take back what I said earlier. The only way to do this is through scrutiny. |
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Post by sunflower on Nov 11, 2023 18:42:12 GMT
I also understand what you're getting at; but scrutinizing everything is a common form of self-sabotage. If you skinned an apple in an attempt to figure out why it's red, it would no longer be red, and would spoil much faster unless you ate it quickly. Time is essential, and experiments can't be undone. Don't you get better results if you go with the flow and do what you believe has the best chance of success, regardless of whether everyone agrees? That's my experience. That is a recipe for getting taken advantage of. If you just go with the flow you can easily fall subject to your own cognitive biases, or be manipulated by others who know that you have these biases. Scrutiny is a tool that can be equated to the walking stick or guide dog of a blind man. Being able to navigate life while aligning oneself with truth can be very liberating and empowering. Of course, I'm advocating for a healthy balance. Letting go of the need for objectivity in personal matters like having fun is part of that balance.
Only fools just accept things in blind faith without questioning them. I can only believe things that have proven their effectiveness to me, and put my trust in those who've earned it. It's served me better than believing strangers who claim their beliefs are objective because others, in turn, told them so. |
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